Zodiac(2007) - More Than Just A Serial Killer Movie?
Not seen it?
We'll help you decide if this crime mystery is your kind of movie — completely spoiler free.
Seen it?
We reveal things you may have missed, the details you didn't notice and uncover the hidden layers behind the film.
This week, Marc, Darren and Paul crack open Zodiac (2007), David Fincher's film inspired by the case that fascinated millions.
This is a Listener Choice, chosen by Ben Smith.
PART 1 – The Nutshell – If you haven't seen it
A spoiler-free breakdown designed to help you decide if this crime mystery is your kind of film and worth your time.
We explore the story of a series of mysterious crimes that draw together a cartoonist, journalists and investigators, each determined to uncover the truth.
We'll help you quickly understand the tone, style and experience of the film, from its focus on investigation and character to David Fincher's meticulous film making and attention to detail.
By the end of Part 1, you will have made a decision!
PART 2 – The Unboxing – If you've seen it
What Did You Miss?
The things you missed, the details you didn't notice, and the hidden layers behind the film.
The lads reveal moments you may have overlooked, explore visual details, filmmaking choices and hidden references, and discuss the layers that make Zodiac such a rewarding film to revisit.
Paul's Facts of the Day
Behind-the-scenes insights including:
- David Fincher's extraordinary attention to detail.
- The surprising lengths taken to recreate real locations.
- Fascinating connections to other films and filmmakers.
- Production decisions that shaped the finished movie.
- Stories from behind the scenes you probably didn't know.
Hate It or Rate It?
Marc, Darren & Paul submit their scores and Zodiac takes its place in the Legend League.
PART 3 – Listener Lounge – All about you!
The Lobby
Your emails, questions, comments and stories.
Question of the Week
Which is the best movie based on a true story?
Send us your answer and you might hear it featured on the show!
Next Week's Movie
The big reveal of next week's movie!
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Transcript
A cartoonist, a journalist and a cop team up to try and catch a serial killer.
Speaker B:That makes it sound fun.
Speaker B:That makes it sound like a caper.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's not a caper.
Speaker A:No, it's not a caper.
Speaker B:It's dark and brown and raining.
Speaker B:You guys talk about movies way more negatively and then you give it a grade.
Speaker B:I think it's quite good.
Speaker C:But you do the opposite.
Speaker A:Yeah, you do the opposite.
Speaker C:You think the movie's bang average, but you give it a score.
Speaker C:That makes it seems like it's terrible.
Speaker C:Like, you say a movie's okay, but you give it a 2.4.
Speaker C:Hello and welcome to Movies in a Nutshell with me, Mark Farquhar, myself, Darren.
Speaker A:Horn and I, Paul Day.
Speaker C:Here's why you should tune in every week.
Speaker B:We help you make better movie choices on films you haven't seen with quick spoiler free breakdowns to help you decide if they're your kind of movie.
Speaker A:And we help you get more from the movies you have seen with things you missed and details you probably didn't notice.
Speaker C:Plus, there's movie facts, trivia and behind the scenes stories.
Speaker A:There's also your chance to choose the movie.
Speaker C:So grab some popcorn and let's crack open this week's movie.
Speaker C: ere we are once again, Zodiac: Speaker C:This was listener choice and it was chosen by.
Speaker C:That's what we never mentioned on the last episode, who it was chosen by.
Speaker A:We didn't tell anyone that because we wanted them to wait till this episode so then we could tell them.
Speaker C:And it was chosen by Ben Smith, who is a relatively new follower.
Speaker A:Welcome, Ben.
Speaker A:Welcome.
Speaker C:He is moving to the area soon.
Speaker C:Oh, he found us because the Alhambra shared our last Cinema Social.
Speaker C:He was following the Alhambra because he likes movies.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker C:So he wants to.
Speaker C:He'll be here for the next Cinema Social.
Speaker A:Excellent.
Speaker C:So he's gonna come and join us.
Speaker A:So we have.
Speaker C:Hopefully we have Scott Wigglesworth as well, if we can.
Speaker A:He did say he wanted to come through, didn't he?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:One of our OGs.
Speaker A:Yeah, he is our OG.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker C:I think so.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Apart from Joe Lamb.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:Joe Lamb's been with since day one.
Speaker C:Day 0.1.
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:We need like an OG membership.
Speaker C:Yeah, we do.
Speaker C:Okay, so this is part one, the nutshell where we will break the movie down.
Speaker C:Spoiler free.
Speaker C:To help you decide if Zodiac is your kind of movie and if it's really worth your time breaking this one down.
Speaker C:It is based on a true story of the Zodiac killer I wasn't really familiar with this at the time.
Speaker C:Obviously, I know a bit more now.
Speaker C:But were you both familiar with it a the movie and the actual story of the.
Speaker A:The movie?
Speaker A:I've seen once before, the Zodiac thing, until I'd seen the movie.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:No, because he's not.
Speaker C:I didn't know how famous.
Speaker C:No, I didn't know how famous this was as a.
Speaker C:As a killing series.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker A:Had you heard about them, though?
Speaker A:Like, had you heard about.
Speaker C:Before you saw the movie, do you think you knew who the Zodiac killer was?
Speaker B:It's only the same one in Dirty Harry.
Speaker C:I have no idea.
Speaker A:Yes, I read that in the Facts.
Speaker A:Something Zodiac.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was based off the same killers.
Speaker C:Like, when I saw the Cray movie, I already knew who the craze were and all about that.
Speaker C:So I wondered if it was that at that level.
Speaker C:Maybe it is in America.
Speaker A:Maybe.
Speaker C:Maybe.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't really follow serial.
Speaker A:I have a lot of friends who.
Speaker C:Do follow serial killer things.
Speaker C:True crime.
Speaker A:Oh, true crime.
Speaker C:They'll all be all over this Anne Whitakem now.
Speaker A:Shout out to Jen and Vicky.
Speaker A:They won't be listening to this, but I'll give a shout out anyway.
Speaker A:But yeah, they love bit of true crime.
Speaker B:I hate this, people, because whenever I talk about the perfect crime that I'm going to commit, they then tell me how I would get caught and I'm just like, God damn it off.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker C:Yeah, I can just imagine, though, this true crime podcast with this Anne Whitakem thing.
Speaker C:Oh, she's dying.
Speaker C:She was a nice lady.
Speaker C:We think it might have been murder.
Speaker C:Oh, hello.
Speaker C:Hang on.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:Hit record.
Speaker A:Then they're suddenly interested in it all.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, very sad.
Speaker C:Anyway, so what.
Speaker C:How do we break this down?
Speaker C:What is this?
Speaker C:What's the basic premise of this movie?
Speaker B:This is the journalist covering the story of somebody who appears to be becoming a serial killer.
Speaker B:And it is the cartoonist who works in the newspaper who has the most drive to try and solve it.
Speaker C:Anyway.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's about how it may be one the first.
Speaker B:No, I guess Jack the Ripper would have been doing the similar thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, but it's.
Speaker B:It's the newspaper and the media's almost complicity in serial killers and creating.
Speaker B:Because it's weird coming off the back of Spider man because serial killers, in a way, almost like super villains or heroes.
Speaker B:I mean, it's crazy how many people send letters to prisoners asking to marry them and things, you know, like crazy serial killers.
Speaker C:This has got aspects of another Sort of psychological chess match.
Speaker C:The perpetrator against the police, trying to leave him on a merry dance and things like that.
Speaker B:It's about like obsession.
Speaker B:And you've got one guy who seems to be obsessed with killing and another guy obsessed with solving the crimes or solving the puzzles, rather.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's kind of where that meets in the middle.
Speaker A:I've got some breakdowns, which I don't normally do, but one is.
Speaker A:It's kind of, you know, the Joker was the origin story of the Joker, but it was all very serious.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:This is the Riddler.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Origin story.
Speaker A:Because it's very much the puzzles and clues, isn't it?
Speaker A:The other one I've got is a cartoonist, a journalist and a cop team up to try and catch a serial killer.
Speaker B:That makes it sound fun.
Speaker B:That makes it sound like a caper.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's not a caper.
Speaker A:No, it's not a caper.
Speaker B:It's dark and brown and raining.
Speaker A:I've also got the Hulk, Iron Man, Donnie Darko, Casey Johns from the Turtles and Goose from Top Gun team up to try and catch a serial killer.
Speaker B:That's fair.
Speaker B:Elias Cotius is underappreciated.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker B:He really is in this as well,.
Speaker C:Which is tough because there's some good characters, actors in this.
Speaker A:Oh, I had a few things that reminded me of.
Speaker A:We said a few of them at the end of the last episode, but LA Confidential reminded me of that.
Speaker B:That's a good one.
Speaker A:The TV show True Detective, which I've seen the first series of with Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson.
Speaker A:It's very True Detective.
Speaker A:Y JFK in places where they try to, you know, figure it out.
Speaker A:Munich, maybe.
Speaker A:Kind of the tone, quite dark.
Speaker C:Seven.
Speaker A:Seven.
Speaker A:Definitely mute.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Spotlight.
Speaker B:It's less dark than seven.
Speaker B:Like if seven.
Speaker C:Oh, God, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, seven's Office.
Speaker C:I've only seen seven once.
Speaker C:I don't know if I'd want to watch it again.
Speaker B:And it's less emotional.
Speaker B:The Spotlight.
Speaker B:Spotlight will have you bored.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And it's kind of a period piece because it's set in the 60s and the 70s.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Which goes over time of the investigation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you don't think of that as a period piece, but you know What?
Speaker A: We in: Speaker A:So it's very much a period piece.
Speaker C:As well, I add.
Speaker C:So things you've got here, like a decades long investigation.
Speaker C:Journalists chasing the truth.
Speaker C:You got detectives following impossible leads.
Speaker C:Slow burning suspense.
Speaker C:There's quite a lot of that in there.
Speaker C:And a mystery that Continues to fascinate people to this day.
Speaker C:So it's tense.
Speaker C:It's quite an intelligent movie, I would say methodical and quite, to some people think it's quite absorbing.
Speaker A:So, yeah, if you're into that kind.
Speaker A:It's not an action film, it's a thriller.
Speaker A:There's tense moments, but it's more in the vein of the stuff we've just said there, where it's about the atmosphere, the.
Speaker A:The chase to figure out.
Speaker C:I don't think it's what people will expect based on what we've just said.
Speaker C:I think it's quite a unique take on.
Speaker C:On it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's quite distinctive as well, in.
Speaker A:In its tone, I suppose, isn't it?
Speaker A:Spotlight is a good example because it's very much them, trap, unravel something as well, isn't it?
Speaker A:And this is them again.
Speaker C:It's kind of like Spotlight, Meet seven.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's actually pretty good.
Speaker C:Yeah, I couldn't think of one.
Speaker C:I just thought of it right now.
Speaker C:I didn't have anything written down.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:Let's move on to part two, the unboxing.
Speaker C:So, spoiler territory ahead.
Speaker C:If you haven't seen the movie and we've helped you decide you do want to go and watch it, we recommend you do that now and then come back because from this point forward, there will be some spoilers.
Speaker C:So, coming up, we have what did you miss?
Speaker C:Where we'll reveal things you may have missed even if you've seen the movie many times.
Speaker C:Paul has his facts of the day.
Speaker C:And then we round off with Hate It, Overrate it, where we each give a brief opinion score out of 10, and we'll see where it lands on our Legend League, and this time the Listener League, and see what Ben Smith thinks of our opinion.
Speaker C:We'll find out.
Speaker C:What did we miss?
Speaker C:Darren, I'm gonna go to you first.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:I don't want to talk too much about it, but David Finch is a good director.
Speaker B:It's a very technical director.
Speaker B:And there's things that you could watch this again and just pay attention to.
Speaker B:Then one would be his use of music, which you can just go down a rabbit hole with.
Speaker B:One is his use of camera.
Speaker B:He is the most.
Speaker B:Actually, he's one of the reasons I stopped filmmaking.
Speaker C:I stopped.
Speaker B:Yeah, because I saw a video of his process and I was like, I cannot get to that standard.
Speaker B:That's insane.
Speaker C:But there's other fantastic filmmakers who don't do what he does.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's more like.
Speaker B:So let's Say I had the camera on Paul.
Speaker B:Now, the camera would be static, and then when Camp Paul stood up, at the very second that he stood up, the camera would move with him.
Speaker B:And there's a really good breakdown by a YouTuber called Nerdwriter1.
Speaker B:I think it's called how Fincher controls your eyes or something like that.
Speaker B:And the camera only moves when the people move, which means that you don't really notice that the camera's moving because the people's moving.
Speaker B:And there's a really cool area shot when there's a car going around and it turns the corner.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:The camera angles are exactly the same way.
Speaker B:So it makes it a little bit less obvious.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's just really, really cool.
Speaker B:And then his color palette is always.
Speaker C:I did notice I had some notes on the color coloring in this.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, overall, it's very brown, but it's.
Speaker B:But also, one thing I remember Finch of doing is he used to have.
Speaker B:I'm sure when I've kind of taught.
Speaker B:This is usually like a triangle of people.
Speaker B:Like, seven does it really well.
Speaker B:So it's like, you know, the two detectives and the bad guy.
Speaker B:And then Fight Club does it really well.
Speaker B:It's the two main guys and the girl.
Speaker B:And then in this, I was like, is this a triple, like, thing again?
Speaker B:But it would be the.
Speaker B:Jake Gyllenhaal would be one.
Speaker B:Robert Dean Downey Jr. Would be another.
Speaker B:So then who would be the third?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I'm not sure if it really works.
Speaker B:But, yeah, you can go down a rabbit hole.
Speaker B:You can do your own research.
Speaker B:And if you.
Speaker B:To find out why Finch is highly regarded.
Speaker B:The other thing I noticed is there was the air time was passing, and it would, like, do a cut to black.
Speaker B:But the cut to black kept getting longer and longer.
Speaker B:And at one point, I was like.
Speaker B:I thought my Internet stopped.
Speaker B:I was like, what's going on?
Speaker B:Because I've got dodgy.
Speaker C:But I think sometimes it would cut to black, but you'd still have some sound.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But then maybe that's a maybe because I've heard of that before where.
Speaker C:Because the visual's gone and the sound.
Speaker C:You're still.
Speaker C:It's still giving you some form of food for thought.
Speaker B:Some guy online camera where I saw it said it was because it was the public losing interest, so they were just done with it.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker B:But I don't know if that was.
Speaker C:Drift, part of the drifting.
Speaker C:And, like, sometimes it would skip four or a few days, then it would Skip, like four years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But with all the skipping, you.
Speaker C:You sort of unintentionally being moved a really long time and you start to realize that everyone's giving up the fight or people are moving on and it's just.
Speaker C:But it still continues.
Speaker A:I've just had a look at David Fincher films because there's loads that I forgot but are clearly David Fincher films.
Speaker A:Panic Room with Jodie Foster.
Speaker A:The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, which I've never seen.
Speaker B:That's an oddity.
Speaker A:The Social Network.
Speaker C:I didn't know that was him.
Speaker A:The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo remake, because they did obviously the Swedish version, didn't they?
Speaker A:Swedish, Norwegian, whatever it was.
Speaker A:And then he did his American version with Daniel Craig.
Speaker A:He was involved in the House of Cards show, Gone Girl as well.
Speaker A:So he has a very distinct style.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It feels like it's a thriller director really at heart.
Speaker C:Also, Mark Ruffalo is playing the exact same character this.
Speaker C:In this as he's in Dark Waters.
Speaker B:Dude.
Speaker B:It's not that far off from the same guy in Spotlight and not that far off from his version of the Incredible Hulk when he's Bruce Banner.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So pretty.
Speaker C:But Dark Waters is the same thing.
Speaker C:Well, like, he's like, you won't give it up.
Speaker C:That time he was.
Speaker C:Was he a lawyer?
Speaker C:Yeah, he was a lawyer.
Speaker C:This time he's like the investigator.
Speaker A:It's like, we need someone on the case.
Speaker A:We'll get Matt Ruffalo.
Speaker C:He's.
Speaker A:He's good at.
Speaker C:He'll just keep going.
Speaker C:He won't give up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Then it's also a story about, you know, Jake G's character just up his own life in slow motion.
Speaker A:Very much so, yes.
Speaker A:There's that scene where his Mrs. We're in spoilers, aren't we?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Just checking that.
Speaker A:Where his misses Comes in.
Speaker A:Oh, the kids are asking after you.
Speaker A:And his place is a mess.
Speaker A:And he's clearly just focused on this one thing.
Speaker A:She's obviously got divorce papers or something.
Speaker C:And it's like he doesn't even notice them.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And he's like, how's your cartoon?
Speaker A:And going, oh, yeah, don't do that anymore either.
Speaker A:He's just up the whole thing because he's so determined on this one.
Speaker C:Single minded.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just got obsessed.
Speaker B:And then it's kind of his story, isn't it?
Speaker B:Because he's the one who wrote the book in real life.
Speaker B:And then the movie came out, I'm sure.
Speaker B:Don't they watch Dirty Harry in this film?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So I was going to say that, but didn't want to go into the spoilers thing.
Speaker A:So in.
Speaker A:In the.
Speaker A:When they got the movie theater.
Speaker A:And I'm gonna go into other facts of the day, but they're watching Dirty Harry because the.
Speaker A:That's based off the zodiac killer as well.
Speaker C:So you're right.
Speaker C:There's a part in it that's similar to what he's got going on.
Speaker A:I think they were trying to get one of the clips of Clint Eastwood.
Speaker A:So you knew it was Dirty Harry, but Clint Eastwood disallowed it because he didn't want to be in another.
Speaker A:Even though it's one of his other films inside this film.
Speaker A:He disallowed it because apparently he didn't want to be in another film with a serial killer.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Even though obviously he gets up, he.
Speaker C:Goes, I have to leave.
Speaker C:I'm going, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So that.
Speaker A:That was based off that.
Speaker A:So I doubt they did that in real life.
Speaker A:Potentially all sat in the cinema at the same place.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And that's interesting because I've got this theory that we.
Speaker B:We may all have a good decade.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Like, whenever I talk about this, it feels like people know.
Speaker B:Like, I.
Speaker B:My 30s were amazing.
Speaker C:I love my 20s.
Speaker A:For me, I'm hoping mine's still coming.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm really.
Speaker B:My 40s have been a nightmare the last few years, but I'm hoping my 50s where it's at.
Speaker B:So we will see.
Speaker B:We'll see.
Speaker B:But then it's interesting watching this because obviously they go through the 60s and how jarring is or it must have been to live through the 60s into the 70s, because the whole kind of theme and zeitgeist of the period changes.
Speaker B:And so you've got Robert Downey junior's character who feels like he's a.
Speaker B:Like probably LSD taking free things.
Speaker C:He's a rogue loose cannon, isn't he?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But he's a man on the edge.
Speaker C:Yeah, Constantly.
Speaker B:Totally.
Speaker B:And then he hits the 70s and he's just like, what the fuck?
Speaker B:And it just quits and it goes.
Speaker C:Lives on a boat and just drinks constantly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:To be honest, it's like all the leads pretty much blow up their lives to some extent.
Speaker A:Ruffle all the way affects them.
Speaker A:But yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So then it's interesting because in the 60s, it feels like people, or maybe the.
Speaker B:The public were more like, love is the answer, we got to catch a criminal.
Speaker B:It's whatever.
Speaker B:And then in the 70s, it'd be like, just shoot him.
Speaker B:So it almost feels like the 70s would be like Nixon wouldn't.
Speaker B:It was that late 60s.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm not good on the American.
Speaker B:But it feels like the 70s, the 70s feels from the outside, through the cinema lens to be may way more right wing than the 60s were.
Speaker B:Don't know how true that is, but it definitely feels that way.
Speaker A:That's interesting because.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, cops can break the rules.
Speaker B:You just shoot the bad guys and that's all cool.
Speaker B:And then we had, you know, we've had awful things with the police doing stuff from George Floyd onwards where now you can't.
Speaker B:Yeah, you couldn't make Lethal Weapon now because you can't have a cop who's willing to break the walls.
Speaker A:No, you can't have Mel Gibson's.
Speaker A:No, Riggs would not be allowed.
Speaker B:Like, you got a good, oh, look,.
Speaker A:There's a cop who's about to shoot himself and he's really on the edge.
Speaker B:And no, he's like, well, would someone get him mental health up and retire him?
Speaker B:Like he needs support.
Speaker A:Well, to be honest, they tried in Lethal Weapon, the therapist, and he used to just keep taking the piss out of her.
Speaker B:And we need nice wholesome policemen like Jake Perotti.
Speaker A:From Brooklyn Dynamite.
Speaker B:That's what we need.
Speaker A:Peralto.
Speaker B:Peralto.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that was.
Speaker B:That was kind of it.
Speaker B:And then the other thing that I didn't realize until the end is.
Speaker B:So the cartoonist tracks all these people, gets really annoyed that justice wasn't done, and so then writes a book blaming the guy who did it.
Speaker B:And then Zodiac, the movie gets made blaming the guy who did it, but the guy who they say did it was never caught and never charged.
Speaker C:There's never enough evidence proven.
Speaker B:And he's innocent until proven guilty.
Speaker B:Except now everyone is basically just saying, that's not fair.
Speaker C:No, it's not that.
Speaker A:End credits.
Speaker C:It's almost like they had to go, we've got.
Speaker C:We've got to have someone.
Speaker C:Let's just pretend.
Speaker C:Let's just make him like his family members.
Speaker B:And like, they're always going to be like, oh, no, he was a serial killer.
Speaker B:There was no.
Speaker B:He wasn't charged.
Speaker C:No, it's.
Speaker C:But everybody they talked to around him was like, yeah, he's a nut job.
Speaker C:Not surprised.
Speaker C:But it.
Speaker C:But it wasn't him.
Speaker C:But surely there was no evidence to prove that it was him.
Speaker A:But wasn't the scene where they tied everything together, but there still wasn't enough evidence based off his timeline.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's timeline.
Speaker C:That's not evidence.
Speaker B:But then what's with the story.
Speaker A:Thanks, Mark Ruffler.
Speaker B:There's a really good tense scene where Jake Gyllenhaal goes into that guy's house who's very suspicious.
Speaker B:Oh, you've got a basement.
Speaker B:That's weird.
Speaker B:No one has a basement.
Speaker B:I have a basement.
Speaker A:That was a creepy scene.
Speaker B:I've also got a telephone down here.
Speaker C:I was like, get out there.
Speaker B:Quick.
Speaker A:Get out.
Speaker B:But he's like, no, I wrote those posters.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But that's not who the film in the book say is.
Speaker B:No, they say it's the guy who.
Speaker B:The actor who's from Fargo.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the guy in the basement, he does the voice of Roger Rabbit.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was also.
Speaker A:I spent the whole time going like, that's the voice of Roger Rabbit.
Speaker A:And then it got creepy, and I'm like, okay, I'm a bit freaked out now.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker B:I also like it when Jack and Lyholes in the prison talking to the woman.
Speaker B:And he's like, just say it.
Speaker B:Just say it.
Speaker B:I want the evidence.
Speaker B:And it's like, dude, that's not investigative journalism.
Speaker B:This is why you're a cartoonist.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Stick to your day job.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I found something you might have missed, but it's not in the film particularly.
Speaker A:It's just in terms of the stars of the film.
Speaker A: So this is: Speaker A:You've got Robert Downey Jr.
Speaker A:In there.
Speaker A:So Robert Downey Jr.
Speaker C:It's just before Iron Man.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:2008 Was Iron man, so he went on his redemption arc.
Speaker A:So in Ally McBeal, he played a character called Larry Paul in the fourth season.
Speaker A:Such a good character.
Speaker B:Phenomenal.
Speaker B:First time I realized he could sing.
Speaker A:Oh, so good.
Speaker A:Anyway, depressingly, all of his drugs, bus stuff came at the end of somewhere.
Speaker A:After season four, he just won Golden Globes.
Speaker A:I was very invested in this character.
Speaker C:Living life on the edge in real life as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So he got arrested, had to leave Ali appeal.
Speaker A:Anyway, got his life back together, got together with his now wife of around that time, Susan Downey.
Speaker A:Susan Downey.
Speaker A:So she's like a producer or something like that.
Speaker A:Gets together with him, kind of pulls it all back together, and he starts doing films again.
Speaker A: One of them being in: Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker B:Perfect.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A: And then this is obviously: Speaker C:Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker A:Sherlock Holmes, yeah.
Speaker A: That was: Speaker A:I think it was the year after.
Speaker A:So all of a sudden he went from like, oh, Robert Downey Junior's you know, still respected actor doing films like this.
Speaker A:And then he did Tropics and boom, Megastar.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's just interesting, sort of.
Speaker A:And you've got Jake Gyllenhaal, who.
Speaker A:He was sort of riding high in lots of different movies.
Speaker A:Matt Ruffalo at this point probably wasn't as big as he is now, but he was doing loads of character.
Speaker C: So I think Dark Waters was: Speaker A:Oh, so this was after.
Speaker C:Yeah, that was interesting.
Speaker B:He was in Air America, which no one talks about as well.
Speaker C:I don't even.
Speaker A:Robert Downey.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Malcolm.
Speaker C:Not seen that.
Speaker A:And he was in the US Marshals around the end of the 90s as.
Speaker B:Well with Weird Science.
Speaker A:Yeah, he was.
Speaker A:I think that was his first film role.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:Well, something that people might have missed is the.
Speaker C:How little time this film focuses on the killer.
Speaker C:It's more focusing on the people trying to catch the killer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because they don't know who the killer is.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's the.
Speaker C:That's the real story.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's where it kind of unravels and that's where the real me to the.
Speaker A:Story is very much put in this film.
Speaker A:Like some of the films like this might not show the killing scenes, but this kind of shows them early on, doesn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah, and it's quite shocking and graphic and grim.
Speaker C:The other.
Speaker C:I guess the other side of it is when it's showing not the killer, but it's showing the police and the investigators and all people.
Speaker C:It's how much it affects their life when they.
Speaker C:When they dedicate themselves to it.
Speaker C:Kind of this machine that sucks them into it and they all kind of like then.
Speaker C:Then fade away or just give up.
Speaker B:Reminds me of Al Pacino in Heat.
Speaker C:That's another movie I feel I need to see.
Speaker A:We'll.
Speaker A:We'll keep trucking away.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:When you go to the.
Speaker C:You talk about the music in this.
Speaker C:There's some big peaks and troughs in this.
Speaker C:One of the biggest shifts I've noticed before I sort of started looking at that side of it was when they interview the main.
Speaker C:Is it Lee, the main guy who they think is him, at his work?
Speaker C:When it's like.
Speaker C:Because it's really not.
Speaker C:I don't know if you noticed this, but it's really noisy in the factory.
Speaker C:There was music as they were pulling up.
Speaker C:They go into the room that these boss basically shuts the door, everything stops.
Speaker C:And there's really low music in the background which kind of builds up, and it's like really tense music.
Speaker C:And that was.
Speaker C:That was.
Speaker C:I thought that was my favorite scenes, because that was the first where we're all.
Speaker C:We're all thinking, this.
Speaker C:Is this him?
Speaker C:This seems like it.
Speaker A:It's when they get the watch and it says Zodiac on the watch, and it's like, shit, that must be him.
Speaker C:Yeah, that was.
Speaker C:That was a kind of a pivotal moment.
Speaker A:Circumstantial.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's cool.
Speaker B:And that was quite a nice way of establishing the decade, because the 60s stuff was quite kind of Vietnam music, which.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I don't know if I've seen any other Fincher movies, but this was.
Speaker C:I really.
Speaker C:That was.
Speaker C:That was very.
Speaker C:It was trademarks, things that.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's, like, his things all over it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's quite a good.
Speaker A:There's lots of quite good lines in it because I'm always trying to find the final line as well.
Speaker A:I'm gonna end these bloody episodes on.
Speaker A:And I'm like, oh, this isn't gonna have any, like, lines.
Speaker A:But then there's quite a few zingers in.
Speaker A:In it.
Speaker C:And you're like.
Speaker A:I mean, God knows if I'll pick the right one for Darren to approve.
Speaker A:But, yeah, there is quite a lot of.
Speaker A:For a serial killer sort of film, there is, like, little battery bits within it.
Speaker C:He's unhinged.
Speaker C:So, yeah, he's gonna say some stuff.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But this.
Speaker C:These kind of situations.
Speaker C:You've seen him in all other situations where they bring out all the nut jobs and the attention seekers who, like, I am him, or I know him, or I have this, I have that.
Speaker C:I've seen a ufo, I got abducted by aliens.
Speaker C:I had an anal probe.
Speaker C:Did you really?
Speaker C:Like, when he looks down the corridor, there's, like, a queue of people.
Speaker C:You're like, oh, God.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they're all ringing the phone off the hook sort of thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:After, like, the fifth or sixth person, like, we.
Speaker C:We're nowhere near.
Speaker C:We have nowhere.
Speaker C:We're doing it.
Speaker C:We're even further behind now.
Speaker B:The FBI in the CIA took a crack at breaking the code and failed.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:So is that part of the true story where the cartoonist did actually?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, it must be part of the true story.
Speaker B:They must have got involved.
Speaker A:Well, then it must have been that, because that was the initial one where it cuts to the CIA and they're all core cracking.
Speaker A:And then when Robert downey What's his character?
Speaker C:Oh, Paul.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:He comes in, he's like, oh, yeah, it's been cracked by this couple who would just.
Speaker A:Just a random husband and wife who managed to crack it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So the CIA.
Speaker A:What did you say?
Speaker A:Lame.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We've got our greatest minds.
Speaker A:Oh, it's the writers of the Lost act, our best people.
Speaker A:Top minds.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's almost like the.
Speaker C:There's casualties of everyone who tries to, like, latch onto this and do it.
Speaker C:So I made a list of the.
Speaker C:So there's every major character pays a price.
Speaker C:So you've got Inspector Dave.
Speaker C:Toshi was.
Speaker C:It loses his credibility.
Speaker C:Paul Avery's career collapses through alcoholism, obsession.
Speaker C:And Grace Smith sacrifices his family.
Speaker C:That's the Paul, isn't it?
Speaker C:That's the cartoonist sacrifices his family, family life, pursuing the answers.
Speaker C:So it's like, again, that goes to the Dark waters thing, where people, they're so obsessed with cracking this case, but they'll throw everything into it.
Speaker C:But there's just repeating pattern of those people just give up or move on.
Speaker A:And you get that after credit thing that you normally get in high school movies where it's like, this is what they're doing now.
Speaker A:Yeah, but obviously we get it with the guitar, the cartoonist and the detective.
Speaker C:I mean, in this, the killer almost becomes secondary.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's very much about the people investigating its lives, isn't it?
Speaker C:I suppose one other thing is the fact this isn't resolved like it goes.
Speaker C:It would go through all this like as.
Speaker C:I. I didn't know.
Speaker C:I didn't look up the Zodiac before I watched it.
Speaker C:I was expecting to have the classic formula where we get to an end point.
Speaker A:Same.
Speaker A:Because I haven't seen it in that long.
Speaker A:I forgot that you don't get to an end point.
Speaker C:So it's quite different in that I know it's a true story.
Speaker C:No one's written this, but it's a.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:Not a new.
Speaker C:It's not a usual way that this would end.
Speaker C:I mean, having no real conclusion.
Speaker A:Well, Robert Graysmith, Jake Gyllenhaal's character, he goes to the place, doesn't he?
Speaker A:And he said something to his wife about, I want to look him in the eyes and know that it's him.
Speaker A:And he goes to the hardware store or wherever he's walking and it says Lee on his badge.
Speaker A:And he turns around and they don't say anything, do they?
Speaker A:He just sort of walks off and it's like, is that him going, that's my guy.
Speaker A:Yeah, his Reactions confirmed it or not?
Speaker A:Because then it's pretty much the main credits where it's like, this is unresolved.
Speaker A:There's no evidence, and he died before they got to interview him.
Speaker C:I wonder if the.
Speaker C:The cutting through time, obviously making you realize how long time is passing is part of the.
Speaker C:The vehicle of the movie to make you sort of.
Speaker C:Because you start thinking this is going on for a long time.
Speaker C:We're not really getting anywhere.
Speaker C:But so are the characters.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So you as a viewer are having.
Speaker C:You get to the end, you're, like, quite deflated, disappointed.
Speaker C:As are they.
Speaker A:And you see the kids grow up, and you see them, you know, Anthony Edwards character, he's like, oh, no, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm done out of that department.
Speaker A:He leaves to go somewhere else.
Speaker A:And they all sort of filter out on the.
Speaker C:And I was wondering if that was a Fincher, deliberate Fincher thing to sort of mimic.
Speaker C:We're following sort of their sort of trajectory downwards at the end.
Speaker A:Defeated being traced.
Speaker A:Based on a true story.
Speaker A:I guess they couldn't do any more than.
Speaker C:Well, there's different ways you could tell it, though, different aspects you could focus on.
Speaker C:Okay, thank you, gentlemen.
Speaker C:Let's move on to Paul's fantastic facts of the day.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Let's do this for this bit more of a niche film.
Speaker C:But I'm sure that obviously based on a true story, there will be some.
Speaker A:Yeah, a lot of them do go into the fact of the true story stuff.
Speaker A:So the murder victims costumes were meticulously recreated from forensic evidence that was lent to the production.
Speaker A:So like you were saying about detail in one of the films the other day, it's all about the detail.
Speaker A:Sometimes in it, it's crazy.
Speaker B:Did you see that they shot on the same locations where the murders happened sometimes.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:The lake set in the oak trees had been cut down, so he helicoptered in.
Speaker B:Oak trees.
Speaker A:Now that's attention to detail, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's like, just go shoot somewhere else.
Speaker B:Nope, I'm gonna.
Speaker C:Something similar.
Speaker A:When Matt Ruffalo met David Toshi, the investigator he plays in the film, he was very impressed to learn that Toshi had perfect recall of every detail in every case still, which I suppose if you lived with it for that long,.
Speaker C:It's ingrained in your brain.
Speaker B:Is it eidetic memory or something like that?
Speaker A:Quite possibly.
Speaker B:I don't know if he had that.
Speaker A:So the shooting script was 200 pages long.
Speaker A:So to prevent any problems with the length that such a long script might cause, Fincher Decided to ask his cast members to speak faster.
Speaker A:So maybe that's why it's got that kind of rapid dialogue fire.
Speaker B:A very loose guide is one page is one minute on screen.
Speaker C:I'm guessing they have more than that.
Speaker A:This is one again, that sort of the whole reality versus what they filmed and things.
Speaker A:So because he wanted the film to be as accurate as possible, Fincher decided not to depict any of the alleged Zodiac murders, for which there were no surviving victims or witnesses.
Speaker A:So the only ones he did where there was that to try and make as accurate as possible.
Speaker A:Robert Graysmith and Paul Avery were not actually friends.
Speaker A:Their relationship is fictionalized for the film.
Speaker A:So I guess in real life, the cartoonists over there doing that and Paul.
Speaker C:Every did make it more from that aspect.
Speaker C:A bit more interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:More of a dynamic there.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Hair was digitally added to the close ups of Jake Gyllenhaal's knuckles as he draws or holds letters because David Fincher felt that Gyllenhaal's hands were too hairless and pretty.
Speaker A:I know Darren's face is brilliant.
Speaker C:That seems like Fincher's got that.
Speaker C:You rotate like perfectionist and weird details that no one else would think about or care about.
Speaker A:Well, he put in the blood as after effects as well.
Speaker A:I read somewhere.
Speaker A:So to save others, in order to save time, he decided to digitally add all the blood in the murder scenes.
Speaker A:Okay, maybe.
Speaker C:Maybe cheaper, though.
Speaker C:Save time on location costs, I guess.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Dermot.
Speaker A:Dermot Merollney saying that.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:I'm overthinking it now.
Speaker A:Him, Dermot, he had to wear a fat suit for a few of his scenes because Fincher felt he was far too in shape for his character.
Speaker B:I always think that's Ivy Roberts when I first see him.
Speaker B:Like, that's not Eric Roberts.
Speaker A:That's because it isn't Eric Roberts.
Speaker A:But I see what you're thinking.
Speaker A:Jake Gyllenhaal shares one of the creepiest scenes with Charles Fleischer, voice of Roger Rabbit in real life.
Speaker A:The two have known each other since Gyllenhaal was three years old.
Speaker C:Oh.
Speaker A:George Lucas gave an interview to Empire magazine once stating that the Zodiac murders captured his imagination at the time as a high schooler and then college student at ucs.
Speaker A:Sorry, uc.
Speaker A:Usc.
Speaker A:And he always felt like Toshi was hardly harshly judged for how the investigation was handled.
Speaker A:He explained this is why he named a location on Tatooine Toshi Station in honor of the SFPD inspector.
Speaker A:I was going to the touchy station to pick up some Power converters.
Speaker A:So that's why that's called that.
Speaker A:Initially, David Fincher wanted to cast Brad Pitt as Avery before he settled on Robert Downey Jr.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker C:I could see him doing that.
Speaker A:Toshi spends the whole film mooching food, animal crackers, sandwiches from those around him.
Speaker A:When Graysmith presents the solution at the diner in the film's climax, Toshi pays for both their meals.
Speaker A:Brandon, one more.
Speaker A:Anthony Edwards was cast as Armstrong because David Fincher wanted him to be played by a thoroughly decent person.
Speaker A:Fincher actually already knew him, not so much from his work on er, but because he was a neighbor.
Speaker A:Like I need him.
Speaker C:I know him now.
Speaker C:He.
Speaker A:He's like his partner.
Speaker C:Yeah, he had.
Speaker C:He's a sound alike of David Trimmer.
Speaker C:They sound exactly the same.
Speaker A:Oh, someone.
Speaker C:I'm sure someone might have done on the Internet.
Speaker C:But Anthony Edwards sounds just.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And goose.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Sounds just like David Trimmer.
Speaker B:He used to look like Ryan Reynolds sometimes.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker B:I'm just like, wait, what?
Speaker B:And then it would go.
Speaker C:Somebody please back me up on that one.
Speaker C:We'll find out next week.
Speaker A:Right, right in.
Speaker A:Let us know.
Speaker C:Thank you, Paul, for your fantastic facts.
Speaker C:That takes us on to hate it or rate it.
Speaker C:So what do we think?
Speaker C:I'm going to go to Darren first.
Speaker B:David Finch is a very interesting, talented director and movies like this need to be made.
Speaker B:And I think if you're into true crime documentaries or true crime podcast, you would love this and you would love watching it over again.
Speaker B:It's going to be really rich.
Speaker B:You're going to find stuff in the background and like name tags or colors or signs.
Speaker C:There's a lot of attention to detail in this.
Speaker B:Totally.
Speaker B:You mean you can go watch videos on.
Speaker B:Yeah, there'll be like 30 minute videos breaking down all the clues.
Speaker C:I think that's part of the reason why this is so long, is because they wanted to keep.
Speaker C:Well, I think it might be.
Speaker C:I don't know if it's a Fincher thing, but it's worth keep for the stories.
Speaker C:Worth keeping all the details in.
Speaker B:Yeah, totally.
Speaker B:And so it's, it's great that it's made.
Speaker B:You know, maybe I wasn't watching it.
Speaker B:I was watching it at 10 o' clock at night through to like half 12 and I was bored out of my mind from the moment it started.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:It started and then I'm on a male, like male trolley just being driven around.
Speaker B:I actually was watching it and I was kind of settling down and then like, wait, what have I missed?
Speaker B:Is he just been walking to work?
Speaker B:And I went to the beginning a bit, and I was like, yeah, that was just five minutes we've been going to work.
Speaker B:I was like, was there any visual storytelling going on?
Speaker B:Was there?
Speaker A:Yeah, the visual of him going to work.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was like, we haven't gone back to the 40s where you see the guy turn up at the building, go in, go into the lift, go all the way up.
Speaker A:No cut.
Speaker B:We've gone through French New Wave.
Speaker B:You can skip.
Speaker B:You can jump to the bit.
Speaker B:We have an intelligent audience.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I was bored out of my mind.
Speaker B:It was a bunch of white guys talking in rooms, which can be good, you know.
Speaker B:12 Angry Men is wonderful, actually.
Speaker A:That's what happened, though, is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But also because there's another movie called by Bong Joon Ho, who did like Parasite and Host and Snowpiercer called Memories of Murder.
Speaker B:It was the first film I saw by him, and that's a similar story, but I just felt that.
Speaker B:And it's got the same open ending, but I just thought it was done better than Fincher or Parasite and Host.
Speaker C:They sound like the sequel.
Speaker C:Prequel and sequel.
Speaker C:Parasite.
Speaker C:Then we have the host.
Speaker B:That's true as well.
Speaker B:It was a host.
Speaker B:It's like almost a Dungeons and Dragons horror set in modern times.
Speaker B:And parasites are commentary on social class.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's like the working class of the.
Speaker B:Well, the.
Speaker B:You could argue that.
Speaker B:The wealthier.
Speaker B:The Parasite or the working class of the past.
Speaker B:It depends what way you want to go.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I was bored out of my mind.
Speaker B:It's a serial, and I hate saying this sentence.
Speaker B:I didn't care about any of the victims, and I hate saying that because these are real fucking people.
Speaker B:But there was no backstory on them.
Speaker B:We would just meet them, then they'll get shot or killed or stabbed.
Speaker C:I don't think they were really.
Speaker C:They were inconsequential to the story.
Speaker C:The story was about the people trying to solve it.
Speaker C:Yeah, that was the crux of the movie.
Speaker B:But it means I don't care.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:And then I didn't care.
Speaker B:I. I also.
Speaker B:I find it really hard to like Jake Gyllenhaal in anything.
Speaker B:I just find him quite a bland actor, and I really find it hard to latch.
Speaker B:I can't think of a movie that I've seen with him in where I thought, oh, he was good enough.
Speaker B:He's just a bit.
Speaker B:So I. I didn't like it.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I was really bored.
Speaker B:It was a struggle to get Through I.
Speaker C:Well, that's tricky if you.
Speaker C:If you're bored and it's really long.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've only watched this once.
Speaker B:I watched it at the cinema and then I was like, I've watched a film and I've never watched it again.
Speaker B:And I think I can see why.
Speaker B:I don't think it's Finch's best at all.
Speaker B:I'd much rather watch Alien 3.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:Sorry, guys.
Speaker B:Hasn't even got J.K. simmons slamming his fist on the table, demanding photos of Spider Man.
Speaker A:Ben is not going to be happy with your assessment.
Speaker B:Potentially, I can't think of a reason to not go really low.
Speaker B:So I'm going to go like 2.7.
Speaker C:Over to you, Paul.
Speaker A:This sort of film for me isn't my go to watch.
Speaker A:I always find them a bit grim when they're based.
Speaker A:I got movies for escapism.
Speaker A:That's why I like them.
Speaker A:And I know people are obsessed with true crime and things because, like, I have lots of friends who are.
Speaker A:For me, it freaks me out.
Speaker A:I much prefer it when it's Hollywood deaths and it's imaginary and it's escapism.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you know, the cops are blowing up buildings and there's people dying everywhere and stuff.
Speaker A:It's Hollywood.
Speaker A:I'm not as affected as this happened.
Speaker A:These people got killed by this guy, this.
Speaker A:Yeah, it freaks me out a bit.
Speaker A:And especially when there's the graphic scenes and everything.
Speaker A:If it was a graphic scene in like a, I don't know, a daft Michael Bay film, I'd be like, okay, it's a movie.
Speaker A:But when it's based so, you know, close to the proper actual murders, it freaks me out because I'm like, this is horrendous.
Speaker A:We've made it into entertainment in a way.
Speaker A:I guess it puts it out there and you find out more about him.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's just me and these kind of films.
Speaker A:Not really my go to.
Speaker A:But I'll watch him now and again just for a change of pace.
Speaker A:Having said all that, I thought it was well crafted movie.
Speaker A:I thought the acting was good.
Speaker A:Finch's direction was good.
Speaker A:Bit long, perhaps, but maybe that's why you get the scene and the tension, because you're getting all the details and things like that.
Speaker A:What am I gonna give it?
Speaker A:It's not the sort of film I would watch.
Speaker A:It's not the one that leaves me with.
Speaker A:The happy thing was I walk.
Speaker A:And like you said, there's no real ending on it, which isn't the filmmaker's fault.
Speaker A:It's not like they can just say, oh, I think they hinted as much as they could that they think it's this guy.
Speaker A:That's kind of where it's left, isn't it?
Speaker A:Like, we really think it's this guy.
Speaker A:But they couldn't quite prove it.
Speaker A:Here's all the evidence we've had from Jake Gyllenhaal's thing.
Speaker A:He's wrote the book.
Speaker A:The guy who says that was him, he's the one who shot me.
Speaker A:Still not enough somehow.
Speaker B:What is that, 20 years later?
Speaker B:20 Years later, yeah.
Speaker B:I'm like.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:He was going through trauma at that time.
Speaker B:Like, ah, that's not a reliable win.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's all a bit of a mess in it.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it doesn't leave me with enough.
Speaker A:And not that all films need to leave you with an up film, but that's kind of why I got movies, to escape from the world.
Speaker A:So I'm gonna give it a. I'll give it a 6.5.
Speaker A:For me, it's a solid film.
Speaker A:It's just maybe not my cup of tea.
Speaker A:I enjoyed it more probably this time than when I watched it the first time because I think I haven't watched anything like this for a while, so it was quite good to watch something different.
Speaker A:So thank you, Ben, for bringing it back because I haven't seen it for such a long time.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I'll give it 6.5.
Speaker A:Mark, what do you think?
Speaker C:Yes, I.
Speaker C:Not knowing anything about the case and the.
Speaker C:The story, if.
Speaker C:If I think if I'd known that this remained unsolved, I don't.
Speaker C:I wouldn't choose to watch it.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker C:So that was kind of.
Speaker C:I was kind of disappointed when I got through all that length.
Speaker A:No resolution.
Speaker C:Find out, basically, they never solved it.
Speaker C:So I did enjoy the journey.
Speaker C:But, yeah, with it being so long, it did drag in places.
Speaker C:Like, there was a lot.
Speaker C:There was one too many cuts forward when it could have, like.
Speaker C:And also for me, I don't need to see the actual murders.
Speaker C:Yeah, they're quite gruesome.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was the bit for me.
Speaker C:Where I'm like, I would rather the police get to it after it's happened and then we sort of hear what's happened.
Speaker C:We don't.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker C:We read up.
Speaker B:Although that part showed what a coward this serial killer is.
Speaker B:I mean, what a. Yeah, particularly when he tied up the couple and then, like, I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm just going to steal your card.
Speaker B:And then he stabs him.
Speaker C:Control Freak.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I didn't, I didn't feel like.
Speaker C:I, me, I personally, I didn't need to see that.
Speaker C:If I'd found out that's what he'd done in sort of what you call it is a disposition.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Where someone would ask what.
Speaker C:What we got here, what happened?
Speaker C:I, I would be much rather with that.
Speaker C:Plus it would have saved time, made it shorter.
Speaker A:Especially the rest of the film focusing like you said on these other characters.
Speaker A:Like that's what the whole.
Speaker A:It's about them doing the investigation.
Speaker A:Then you've got these murder scenes which you know, put me on edge for the rest of the.
Speaker C:I would have like that was the comedian a bit more of a light hearted aspect of focusing on the nut jobs.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:That's quite entertaining.
Speaker C:Section of it.
Speaker C:Quite.
Speaker C:There was too long for me.
Speaker C:It didn't hold my attention.
Speaker C:It could have been.
Speaker C:There's bits that could have been like you say in the first, first five minutes of walking to work.
Speaker C:But there was, there was, there was plenty of other bits.
Speaker C:I did like some of the dialogue between the police and the journalists.
Speaker C:I like that dynamic of him like always getting like that bit where he.
Speaker C:When he's knocked his stuff on the floor and he's like that wait, I'm gonna pick it up first before you can get out of my way.
Speaker C:I like a little back and forth like that.
Speaker C:That's quite entertaining.
Speaker C:But overall.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Pretty, pretty beige.
Speaker C:This.
Speaker C:It took too long.
Speaker C:And the fact that it never gets resolved as well as.
Speaker C:If I'd known that in advance maybe I would have.
Speaker C:Maybe I would have watched it but I wouldn't have been as disappointed because I knew it was coming.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You'd had a different sort of look.
Speaker C:At it for me to go through all that right at the very go.
Speaker C:Oh, it was never solved.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I didn't know that.
Speaker C:So that kind of took a few points.
Speaker C:So I'm going to give it a bang on six.
Speaker B:You guys talk about movies way more negatively and then you give it a grade I think is quite good.
Speaker C:You do the opposite.
Speaker A:Yeah, you do the opposite.
Speaker C:You think a movie's bang average but you give it a score.
Speaker C:That makes it seems like terrible.
Speaker C:Like you say movie's okay but you.
Speaker A:Give it a 2.4 or you'll go, but it has some good bits.
Speaker A:And you'll.
Speaker B:Let's tell these good bits.
Speaker A:I'm like it's gonna get a five.
Speaker B:And you're like, the filmmaking is really, really good.
Speaker B:I just don't, I didn't enjoy it.
Speaker C:At all this week.
Speaker C:The most important league is the listener league.
Speaker C:So for this it puts it in 16th out of 19th.
Speaker C:So it's not doing great very well.
Speaker C: o it's just ahead of Godzilla: Speaker C:I'm just behind Con Air and Leave the World Behind.
Speaker A:What's the top of the listener choice?
Speaker C:It's a Wonderful Life.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Ben Cully.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:And then with Nell and I'm I Karen still Alien by Seth for six esteemed movies up there.
Speaker A:So I'm guessing you won't be rushing to watch the director's cut of Zodiac.
Speaker C:Not if it does more of the murders.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Absolutely not.
Speaker C:Right, okay.
Speaker C:So that's what we thought.
Speaker C:We'd love to know what you thought.
Speaker C:And that's where it lands on the Legend League.
Speaker C:So I reckon episodes in our back catalog to listen after this would probably history violence.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a good choice.
Speaker C:Maybe Knives Out a Glass Onion mystery.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Where it's kind of like.
Speaker C:But yeah, I couldn't think of anything in our back catalog.
Speaker C:I looked at Legend League and I was like one thing that would follow it.
Speaker A:What about the.
Speaker A:The one I bold about the BlackBerry maybe because that's kind of a story of a business and yeah.
Speaker A:So yeah, it's a bit more light hearted again.
Speaker C:So there we go.
Speaker C:That's maybe your next listen.
Speaker C:You could give them a try.
Speaker A:Now I would say Dark Water, but that was actually one of our trial.
Speaker C:Episodes that will see the light of day one.
Speaker C:At one point this show was very different.
Speaker C:Very different.
Speaker C:Okay, so that takes us on to part three, the listener lounge.
Speaker C:In the listen lounge we have the lobby where we have your questions, your stories and your comments.
Speaker C:We ask our question of the week and we finish by revealing next week's movie.
Speaker C:So in the lobby, got a quick recap for you guys on June's stats.
Speaker C:Now that June stats are in.
Speaker C:So countries we've had downloads for.
Speaker C:Countries we had downloads from in June, was it A8, B10 or C12?
Speaker B:12.
Speaker A:I'll go the middle one.
Speaker A:10.
Speaker C:It was 12.
Speaker A:Oh, you're good at these games.
Speaker C:There we go.
Speaker C:Where did everyone listen from?
Speaker C:So our top five countries were Germany and Belgium tied for fifth place.
Speaker C:Hong Kong came in fourth for this month.
Speaker B:We should pick a Hong Kong review.
Speaker B:We need to get some Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee.
Speaker A:Yeah, that'd be cool.
Speaker C:And UK and us always, always at the top.
Speaker C:So we've got us this month comes in top at 38 of our downloads.
Speaker A:From the US maybe it's our beautiful accents they can't understand.
Speaker C:Closely followed by 36 from the UK, 10 Hong Kong.
Speaker C:Then it goes down to Germany and Belgium is the top five.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker C:There you go.
Speaker C:I just thought I'd give a quick recap.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hello to our listeners around the world.
Speaker C:It's weird that the United States will be more than the uk.
Speaker C:That's happened before as well.
Speaker C:It blows my mind.
Speaker B:We did run load of one, didn't we?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, that was a German film.
Speaker C:Yeah, Germany's always on there.
Speaker C:It's been on there for a long time.
Speaker C:Let's move on to this week's question of the week.
Speaker C:I was gonna put the usual thing out, but then again someone's sent an email in.
Speaker C:So let's go with that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So this is from Paul.
Speaker C:He says hi, lads.
Speaker C:For me, the best truth this is.
Speaker C:Obviously it was related to true stories as well.
Speaker C:For me, the best true stories.
Speaker C:Best true story films are the ones that make you forget you're watching something based on real events.
Speaker C:I'd probably go with Apollo 13.
Speaker C:Even though I already know the details, I still find myself completely invested every time I watch it.
Speaker C:That's got to be a sign of a great film.
Speaker C:That said, I always end up googling afterwards to see in some films to see actually what happened and what the filmmakers changed.
Speaker C:It's amazing how many.
Speaker C:Often my favorite true story films turn out to have taken a few liberties.
Speaker C:Do you judge these films on how accurate they are or whether they tell a good story?
Speaker C:Cheers.
Speaker C:Paul from York.
Speaker B:I think it's story.
Speaker B:I think Zulu is based on a true story, isn't it?
Speaker B:I think yes.
Speaker B:There's another awesome movie called the Siege of Jad at Feel, which is about how the Irish army got deployed as part of the un.
Speaker B:It was the first UN mission and it's basically Zulu.
Speaker B:It's freaking insane.
Speaker B:It's an amazing movie and apparently very, very accurate.
Speaker B:And then one of my favorite movies is 13 hours, which is the Secret Soldiers of the Benghazi I think it's what it's called.
Speaker B:And it's a man American kind of mercenaries and their CIA kind of base gets overrun or something.
Speaker A:And John Krasinski, it's freaking.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:Is it Michael Bay?
Speaker B:Yes, Michael Bates.
Speaker B:Best movie.
Speaker A:I've thrifted this, but I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker B:It's freaking lush.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:From the opening scene to the final.
Speaker A:Scene, I thought it was Krasinski and Michael Bale.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll give that world.
Speaker A:But I Haven't got to it yet.
Speaker C:So thanks, Paul, for your question.
Speaker C:So this week's question of the week is which is the best true story movie?
Speaker B:I just said it.
Speaker A:It's an interesting one, isn't it?
Speaker A:Of the whole facts versus Hollywood.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:And like what they've changed because sometimes the Queen movie.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And sometimes the storyline was flipped to make it make a better story, but it's whether you're okay with that or not.
Speaker A:End on Live Aid, which probably wasn't anything like the actual story when he got aids.
Speaker C:That was after that, that was like.
Speaker C:So they, they switched it over.
Speaker C:But like die hard Queen fans, like, no, can't have that.
Speaker C:Not watching it.
Speaker A:See, for me, I'm like a Queen.
Speaker C:Fan, but I'm like, I don't mind.
Speaker A:See?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For me, sometimes you read it and you go, yeah, but if they'd have done the real thing, it would have been duller.
Speaker C:So this story.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So this is more cinematic or like having characters talk to each other who didn't in real life, like the one we've just done, where they weren't really friends.
Speaker A:Where they were really friends and didn't really interact.
Speaker A:It's like, well, them scenes are just going to be them sat on a typewriter potentially and not interacting.
Speaker A:So I get why they do it.
Speaker B:Sometimes I think it's when they make someone seem more cowardly or evil than they actually were in real life.
Speaker B:And I vaguely remember a story about the Titanic people, I was thinking, and there was one of the crew who is portrayed as kind of a bit inept or something, when in apparently, in fact he was actually quite heroic.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker B:And that's like legacy.
Speaker B:That's like his kids or grandkids getting kind of bullied at school or Holly.
Speaker B:Grandkids.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's the worry, isn't it?
Speaker A:That some people are going to watch it and take it verbatim and think that's what happened when actually they took the liberties to make it more entertaining as a movie.
Speaker A:So there's dangers around it all.
Speaker B:I I Closer to the home, we've got Braveheart, haven't we?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think we all know watching that, that ain't trying to be that stick.
Speaker C:Wasn't that grandiose?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I think there's probably.
Speaker B:But what I also appreciate is when these movies come out, they send TV shows and documentaries and books around it to be like the true story of Braveheart or whatever, you know?
Speaker C:Oh, it's like when a true story is like, it was Part of it in a book.
Speaker C:And it's like, how.
Speaker C:How does the movie relate to it, even if it is a true story?
Speaker A:What.
Speaker C:What's.
Speaker C:What's the difference is the book if it's better, they're both based on the real event.
Speaker C:Which is better, the book or the movie?
Speaker C:Quite often the movie sacrifices time or budgets, whereas the book can just.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Remember the Titans, didn't we?
Speaker A:Because that was based off a true story.
Speaker A:But then that sort of merged a few characters together to make it a bit.
Speaker A:I think there was.
Speaker A:Oh, there was Hayden Paternary.
Speaker A:I can't pronounce the second name.
Speaker A:She was playing the daughter who was a great character in the film.
Speaker A:But actually in real life, he had, like, three daughters, which would have picked one of them.
Speaker A:So there's things where you think, I can see why.
Speaker A:Streamline that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:That is this week's question of the week.
Speaker C:Which is the best true story movie?
Speaker C:So if you'd like your question featured in our question of the week, send them in and we'll.
Speaker C:Adam, add them to our list and we'll pick the best one that takes us on to next week's movie, which I believe is back to me.
Speaker C:So let me just.
Speaker C:I forgot to check.
Speaker C:I just want to make sure it's still where I thought it was if it's available.
Speaker C:And yes, it is.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:So don't think dad's gonna like this one.
Speaker C:But similar to Spider Man, I wanted to go back to a beginning of a journey.
Speaker C: So I'm gonna go to: Speaker C:Fast and Furious.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:The original.
Speaker C:See where.
Speaker C:I mean, I know it kind of goes off a cliff.
Speaker C:Some of the movies.
Speaker C:This is where it started.
Speaker A:It's always solid.
Speaker C:I haven't seen this for a long time.
Speaker C:I saw it a lot at the time.
Speaker C:So I want to see if it's.
Speaker B:The original family, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's always about family or launching cars in space.
Speaker C:I just want to see if it's obviously gonna be more simplistic because it's.
Speaker C:Obviously, each movie has to outdo itself.
Speaker C:So is the original.
Speaker C:Does it hold up?
Speaker C:Basically, that's what I want to see.
Speaker A:Family and street races and cars.
Speaker B:It's going to be about 89 minutes, though, isn't it?
Speaker C:Yeah, it won't be long.
Speaker B:It'd be like a music video.
Speaker B:Cars be like a BMW.
Speaker C:A contrast to this one.
Speaker A:So I'm excited.
Speaker A:I haven't watched the first one for a while.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So there you go.
Speaker C:Next week's movie is fast and furious.
Speaker C:Okay, this episode is officially over.
Speaker C:This is Mark saying goodbye.
Speaker B:This is Darren saying goodbye.
Speaker B:For now.
Speaker A:Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't true.
Speaker C:That could be true for so many things.
